Need some serious help please

Post by **jrh** » Sun May 31, 2020 8:13 am

As you said at the start Bob, you do have the last (third ? ) iteration of Probe distributors.
This is where they really scrambled the alphabet on the connections.
If it cranks, has fuel, times ok, sparks, it has to run !

Post by **Sunfly** » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Sunfly wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 11:34 pm
I found this very useful link when looking for "Check Engine Light" faults.

https://forums.beyond.ca/archive/index.php/t-47452.html

Unlike the manual it give a good description of each sensor, where its located, what it does and the effect it has on the engine, i.e. no start, reduced power etc. I learnt a lot.

Just for my own future reference, I extracted the useful diagnostic info from the above doc and put it in the table below which is in PDF format so you can read and download it (I hope). There is little info in it, not found in the document above and you will need to refer to the above document for test procedures, however, it does pick out some useful info such as the symptom you may experience from each fault, where the sensor is located and what the sensor is measuring.

Most useful to me at the moment is that it showed that just two faults will actually prevent a start/spark. Faults on the CKP2 (external to the Dizzy), and CKP1 internal to the dizzy. CKP1 is automatically fixed with a new working dizzy and I have been through that process 3 times, so (to my mind) that leaves CKP2 and its wiring loom, or the PCM itself (a possibility) or (dread the thought) the immobiliser, but that seem unlikely given that its a Temic. At least it gives me something to go on.

One thing I did note from the Canadian guys excellent fault review was that 2.5v were fitted with OBD-II Datalinks after 1995 and these cannot be read with a diode or analogue meter according to him! True to say that though my first suspect is CKP2 or its loom, it does not show an 02 fault code. However, he was talking about Canada and they could have different datalink sockets for all I know. Anyway, I hope this extract, in conjunction with the detailed fault finding procedures and full explanation above, might be useful to members.

Post by **jrh** » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:23 am

When it worked, the old dissy was the right dissy.
Is there anything on it which absolutely defines it as 'different' from any of those others you have tried ?
I know you are looking elsewhere now, but my 'gut' feeling is still the distributor.
The almost unthinkable is the ECU and if worst came to worst then install an external spark system, I have the full write up for that if necessary.

Post by **Sunfly** » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:36 pm

jrh wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:23 am
When it worked, the old dissy was the right dissy.
Is there anything on it which absolutely defines it as 'different' from any of those others you have tried ?
I know you are looking elsewhere now, but my 'gut' feeling is still the distributor.
The almost unthinkable is the ECU and if worst came to worst then install an external spark system, I have the full write up for that if necessary.

Hi Jon.
Do you remember I tried your USA one without success? Then there were two from the Ignition parts people, one worked but was making noises due to a dodgy machining repair, the other would start then die. Eventually Malcolm came to my rescue and its his that was in harness (I wont say wasn't working) when the problem came along. When I opened Malcolm's dizzy up I found three cracks in the cover plate in front of the CID hall sensor magnet ring, but changing that for a good cover made no difference.

However whats bugging me about this time is that the Check engine light (which I incorrectly thought from the handbook was exclusively the fuel stop switch) is always lit and I don't remember that with the previous, very definitely dizzy, fault. I would much appreciate it if someone with a 96 or 97 2.5ltr could just check their console array and tell me if this light goes out after the console check sequence, or whether it stays lit till the engine starts?

I have a good 12v supply from the ignition to the dizzy, but no spark on any of three dizzys now, one of which being Kevs known good one and all Kevs codes check out with Malcolm's.
So whats inhibiting the spark? Maybe its the CPS or connections (and to be honest, I've little time at the moment to spend on checking it out due to the business), but if its not, surely it has to be the PCM that's inhibiting a start. Plus which, the fuel relay is operating and has tested good, but I have no power at the inertia cut out (fuel shut off switch). Two wiring faults simultaneously? Of course its possible but its very unlikely. So no fuel and no dizzy spark and a check engine light that wont go out does make me very suspicious of the PCM even though I'm absolutely with you that it is always, always, always, the bloody dizzy!!!

So the plan is, I try Kevs other dizzy tomorrow, check the CPS resistance tomorrow, and check through the CPS wiring continuity to the dizzy and if that's OK then I think I'll call in a favour from a police fleet manager I know to link me up to a mobile motor diagnostics guru that the force use for all their patrol cars.
(They are all supposed to have advanced driving qualifications, and skid pan training and all kinds of things, and still they are crashing into other cars and shorting wires out all the time according to my mate. When you see how they rush around joyriding you can sort of see why! I've never had an accident in my life, but why worry about your "no claims" when someone else is paying).

Anyway John, before I write to the Chief Constable, I'd be very, very interested in fitting an external coil kit to the dizzy when I eventually sort this out. I'd be very grateful if you could give me the details.

Ta

Bob.

Post by **jrh** » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:43 pm

You've got me thinking about the immobiliser now !
This is from the '94 Bosch System Arming/Disarming words.
NOTE : Due to the rolling code security feature, the immobiliser will not respond if the remote control button is pressed 255times while out of range of the receiver.
To restore the remote control functions, press the remote control button three times at least three seconds apart within 30 seconds.
This will resynchronise the remote key coding.
End.
Now I know the TEMIC is different but the principle will be similar .
Maybe it does need resynchronising !!!!

Post by **Sunfly** » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:53 pm

jrh wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:43 pm
You've got me thinking about the immobiliser now !
This is from the '94 Bosch System Arming/Disarming words.
NOTE : Due to the rolling code security feature, the immobiliser will not respond if the remote control button is pressed 255times while out of range of the receiver.
To restore the remote control functions, press the remote control button three times at least three seconds apart within 30 seconds.
This will resynchronise the remote key coding.
End.
Now I know the TEMIC is different but the principle will be similar .
Maybe it does need resynchronising !!!!

Ouch! I dont like to the thought of immobiliser problems, John, however, that was why I set the alarm off recently. I was able to reset the alarm with the key and similarly re-arm the car by locking it once more, so to my mind the key is talking to the receiver in the ignition lock. Also, why would an immobiliser fault bring up the Check engine light when it has its own warning which in my case is (I think) a key within a car silhouette. Having said that the fuel and dizzy are, I believe, both on the list of immobiliser deactivation functions so Im not excluding the possibility.

Though I've not heard many mentions of the Powertrain Control Module PCM failing, the possibility is mentioned several times in the manual and in the Canadian guys fault diagnosis as being the top level fault when all other options are eliminated. One comforting thought is that my local mechanic tells me that he can get the PCM repaired if that does prove to be the issue. Another long shot that has crossed my mind is that we have had some seriously hot weather recently. I tried to take a wrench out the boot a few days ago and it was too hot to hold, even though the parcel tray was in place. Its all very old electronics these days.

Can I ask you a question. If you fit an external coil, is it as good, and does it eliminate "ALL" dizzy failures we know so well?

Post by **jrh** » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 am

It would be interesting to know if ANYONE in the club is running a Probe with the external coil + igniter system installed ?
Anyone, please reply with your experience.
That said , mostly we all agree that distributor failure is caused by two situations.
1/ The absurdly small relay contacts in the Bosch immobiliser, cured by the newer Temic or complete removal.
2/ The distributor body being used as the heatsink for the ignition system.
Running at 100deg C + minimum, after awhile, the transistors fail.
Ford dodged the bullets by fitting three models of distributors and messing with the wire connection positions in plugs/sockets.
I think you have model 3 Bob and they are quite rare now.
I have got the external coil stuff out, will be sent soon.

Post by **Sunfly** » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:20 am

jrh wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 am
It would be interesting to know if ANYONE in the club is running a Probe with the external coil + igniter system installed ?
Anyone, please reply with your experience.
That said , mostly we all agree that distributor failure is caused by two situations.
1/ The absurdly small relay contacts in the Bosch immobiliser, cured by the newer Temic or complete removal.
2/ The distributor body being used as the heatsink for the ignition system.
Running at 100deg C + minimum, after awhile, the transistors fail.
Ford dodged the bullets by fitting three models of distributors and messing with the wire connection positions in plugs/sockets.
I think you have model 3 Bob and they are quite rare now.
I have got the external coil stuff out, will be sent soon.

Alan8086 is running with an external coil. He was telling me about it at Tewksbury Classic Vehicle show. Fitted it himself and running OK so far as he was concerned but I don't know Alan's year or whether 16 or 24v.

Post by **Sunfly** » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:24 am

Sunfly wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:20 am

jrh wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 am
It would be interesting to know if ANYONE in the club is running a Probe with the external coil + igniter system installed ?
Anyone, please reply with your experience.
That said , mostly we all agree that distributor failure is caused by two situations.
1/ The absurdly small relay contacts in the Bosch immobiliser, cured by the newer Temic or complete removal.
2/ The distributor body being used as the heatsink for the ignition system.
Running at 100deg C + minimum, after awhile, the transistors fail.
Ford dodged the bullets by fitting three models of distributors and messing with the wire connection positions in plugs/sockets.
I think you have model 3 Bob and they are quite rare now.
I have got the external coil stuff out, will be sent soon.
Alan8086 is running with an external coil. He was telling me about it at Tewksbury Classic Vehicle show. Fitted it himself and running OK so far as he was concerned but I don't know Alan's year or whether 16 or 24v.

Maybe its rarity explains why I had such difficulty getting a dizzy that worked last time! Sounds as though I need to fix this problem then do a conversion.

Post by **jrh** » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:53 am

External coil details posted off to Tomcat yesterday.
That's it, I have no copies.
I was always able to get working spares for the '94 Probe so never had to resort to the external version but definitely the way to go.

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